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Cyprus gang rape incident.

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30 minutes ago, muir said:

 

I'm not defending anything so please don't misrepresent my position as that is not appreciated

 

It appears that way when you read the comments, but I apologise if that is not the case.

 

30 minutes ago, muir said:

 

I don't think rape is acceptable and i'm trying to establish the facts of the case. Like i posted earlier it appears that the police have NOT recorded the full bruising that this lady had and that this imo represents a concealing of evidence especially as they did not look at her shoulders which she says they held down

 

So this all sounds highly suspicious to me

 

There are the facts of the case, which are extremely suspicious, and then there is seeming to condone other people's opinions.

 

30 minutes ago, muir said:

 

The point i was making though was a distinction that there is a difference between saying someone 'deserved' to be raped for putting herself in a situation and saying that putting yourself in certain situations carries inherent risk

 

Again, this sounds like you are saying that rape is to be expected in certain situations.

 

The woman in question appears to have consented to have sex with 3 men. Does this mean she should be raped by those men, even if she made an error of judgement in opting to sleep with these men?

 

If you met three women in a club and they all wanted sex with you, and you wanted sex with them, and they appeared trustworthy, would you say it was a risky situation? The woman in question obviously assessed that the men were trustworthy, because why else would she go with them if she thought "these men are acting like they are going to rape me"?

 

Your position is that "having sex with strangers carries an inherent risk that you will be raped", which is simply not true as most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim and "stranger rapes" account for 10-20% of rape cases, and here are several sources of statistics which back up my assertion.

 

1) https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-43128350

 

2) https://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf

 

30 minutes ago, muir said:

 

For example if someone goes into the mountains and is killed by rockfall or avalanche you don't say that they 'deserved' to be killed for going into the mountains but you do acknowledge that going into that environment carries inherent risk

 

That is a poor analogy as the mountains, rocks or snow does not have free-will and doesn't "choose" to harm anybody.

 

The woman obviously trusted the men, and, if she was raped, then they obviously deceived her into thinking they were trustworthy.

 

A better analogy would be being stopped by a police officer in a car and they asked you to go to the station with them in their vehicle. You would assume to trust the police officer and thus go with him, and then he rapes you in his van and kills you.

 

You had no reason to not trust the police officer, which is why you went with him, so did you deserve to be raped and killed because you should have known there was a chance of such a thing happening to you?

 

Of course not, which is why the woman shouldn't have to bear responsibility for being raped. Rape is always the fault of the rapist, never the victim.

 

30 minutes ago, muir said:

 

So from a caring perspective we surely want young women to be aware of certain risks so that they may make sensible decisions that mitigate the risks that life sadly brings?

 

Of course we want our young women to be aware of risks, as anyone should be, but you're overlooking the fact that this women made an assessment and decided, rightly or wrongly, that these people were trustworthy. In any case, if she was raped, then it matters not about the perceived risks of the people because they have the intent to rape, thus are the guilty party who bears responsibility for their crimes.

 

If I sold you a car that I knew to be a deathtrap, but you didn't check it out before you bought it and then the car exploded with you and your family inside and you all died, would you be to blame or would I?

 

30 minutes ago, muir said:

 

If however, in this case, we are discussing, the woman was subjected to something against her will then it is RAPE and there are many aspects of this case that sound incredibly suspicious and need further investigation to ensure justice is done

 

I agree with you on this, and this is the point of contention. If she was raped then it doesn't matter how she came to be raped because it isn't her fault she was raped.

 

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1 hour ago, PeakGammon said:

It appears that way when you read the comments, but I apologise if that is not the case.

 

apology accepted

 

Quote

There are the facts of the case, which are extremely suspicious, and then there is seeming to condone other people's opinions.

 

we haven't established the facts of the case. I have been trying to get people to stop attacking each other and instead put their efforts into establishing the facts of the case

 

Quote

Again, this sounds like you are saying that rape is to be expected in certain situations.

 

sadly the world being as it is there are some situations that are more risky then others. for example if someone is standing in the middle of a busy area in the middle of the day, fully clothed and sober they are less likely to be raped then if they were alone, in the middle of the night, in a dodgy part of town wearing next to nothing and drunk

 

Quote

The woman in question appears to have consented to have sex with 3 men. Does this mean she should be raped by those men, even if she made an error of judgement in opting to sleep with these men?

 

No it does not

 

however if you don't want any women to experience the same thing then you would want to educate women to the risks rather then to tell them that in no way are they ever responsible for their own safety; that is a DISEMPOWERING message because it implies women have no power over their fate or any ability to assess risk for themselves. This is an important part of self defence for women to understand that there are dangers and that there are things that can be done to mitigate the risks

 

Quote

If you met three women in a club and they all wanted sex with you, and you wanted sex with them, and they appeared trustworthy, would you say it was a risky situation? The woman in question obviously assessed that the men were trustworthy, because why else would she go with them if she thought "these men are acting like they are going to rape me"?

 

right but neither you or I know whether she was sober or whether she knew the men nor whether she exercised good judgement in this case

 

Quote

Your position is that "having sex with strangers carries an inherent risk that you will be raped", which is simply not true as most rapes are committed by someone known to the victim and "stranger rapes" account for 10-20% of rape cases, and here are several sources of statistics which back up my assertion.

 

no my assertion is that it carries an inherent risk full stop. the risk can take many forms. one form of risk is STD's. Another form of risk is that there may be an emotional price to pay for a person especially if they were young or drunk. Rape is an aspect of risk too but it might also take different forms for example it might be that a woman becomes uncomfortable during the act that some sort of line has been transgressed. This line might lie in different places for different people and the more people you throw into the equation and the more alcohol (which can affect judgement) the more risk there maybe that a transgression can occur

 

Quote

That is a poor analogy as the mountains, rocks or snow does not have free-will and doesn't "choose" to harm anybody.

 

There are dangerous people in the world. In fact there are full blown psychopaths in the world and then there is a whole spectrum of psychopathy too. Fullblown psychopaths cannot be rehabilitated. Their dangerous state is as immutable as the mountains, rocks or snow. They are out there and prowling around just like in some parts of the world there are tigers prowling around. If you go unarmed into the tigers territory it might eat you

 

Quote

The woman obviously trusted the men, and, if she was raped, then they obviously deceived her into thinking they were trustworthy.

 

yes it would appear that she misjudged them. this is why parents generally caution their children against such risks

 

Quote

A better analogy would be being stopped by a police officer in a car and they asked you to go to the station with them in their vehicle. You would assume to trust the police officer and thus go with him, and then he rapes you in his van and kills you.

 

No because a police officer is making you go but no one is making you go home with three men. that's a poor analogy

 

Quote

You had no reason to not trust the police officer, which is why you went with him, so did you deserve to be raped and killed because you should have known there was a chance of such a thing happening to you?

 

the police officer has been vetted by the state and is applying a legal obligation on you. It's not the same

Quote

Of course not, which is why the woman shouldn't have to bear responsibility for being raped. Rape is always the fault of the rapist, never the victim.

 

It's not a case of fault that i am speaking about. The fault is with the rapist, but the risk is something that a woman needs to assess in order to be personally empowered through her own good judgment and life choices

 

Quote

Of course we want our young women to be aware of risks, as anyone should be, but you're overlooking the fact that this women made an assessment and decided, rightly or wrongly, that these people were trustworthy. In any case, if she was raped, then it matters not about the perceived risks of the people because they have the intent to rape, thus are the guilty party who bears responsibility for their crimes.

 

yes, if they had non consensual sex with her yes

 

that's not the point that was being debated. the point that was being debated is that there is a difference between saying she 'deserved' it and saying that there are inherent risks with certain actions. One implies she SHOULD be raped for her actions while the other says that it is wrong that she is raped but that in certain situations there is a greater risk of incurring harm because there is a higher exposure to risk of various kinds

 

Quote

If I sold you a car that I knew to be a deathtrap, but you didn't check it out before you bought it and then the car exploded with you and your family inside and you all died, would you be to blame or would I?

 

you would be legally responsible. It would have been best though if i had test driven it with you in it before committing to a purchase. That would be the smart thing for me to do to mitigate against the risks

 

Quote

I agree with you on this, and this is the point of contention. If she was raped then it doesn't matter how she came to be raped because it isn't her fault she was raped.

 

It matters how she was raped if we don't want more young women being raped

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"The teenager, from Derbyshire, alleged she was raped by up to 12 Israeli tourists in a hotel room in the party resort of Ayia Napa on 17 July. 

The men and boys accused, all aged between 15 and 20, were arrested but later freed after she signed a statement withdrawing the claim 10 days later.

But the woman, who cannot be named, has said she was forced the retract the allegation under pressure from Cypriot police and maintains she was gang-raped after having consensual sex with one of the group.
 

The teenager’s British lawyer, Lewis Power, said following Tuesday’s hearing: “Whilst we welcome the fact that the sentence imposed today allows her to go home, we strongly contest the conviction and the fight for her innocence will go on regardless.

“We will be appealing the conviction and will take this case to the Supreme Court of Human Rights.” 

The case hinged on a retraction signed by the teenager following hours of questioning alone and without legal representation. 
 

“Her identity has been compromised, she has been trolled viciously on social media and has been subjected to vile comments.

Read more

“Some of those who perpetrated this serious sexual assault returned to their homeland bragging triumphantly and unashamedly as to what they had done to her, compounding her trauma.”

The lawyer said his client was a “once happy and gregarious young girl” who endured a “dreadful physical violation of a premeditated gang rape” and then “the prolonged mental ordeal under the judicial process in Cyprus”.

“She is adamant of her innocence and that she has told the truth,” he added. 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cyprus-rape-trial-british-teenager-woman-jail-sentence-ayia-napa-israel-a9273146.html  

At least she is free to return home now. The battle for justice is only just beginning..
 

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3 hours ago, bamboozooka said:

released and given a suspended sentence.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51017485

 

so they threatened her with prison and then gave her a reprieve. That's an emotional rollercoaster probably aimed at knocking the fight out of her so that she drops the whole thing

 

looks like they are brushing it under the carpet. They just want it to go away

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The woman's lawyer, Lewis Power QC, said she would be returning to the UK on Tuesday.

 

Speaking to BBC News, he said the case was "not finished by any means" and that he would be appealing the conviction.

 

He said: "We will be seeking an expedited appeal to the Supreme Court of Cyprus and we will also be considering going to the European Court of Human Rights.

 

"We do not feel we have had justice in terms of how the trial progressed, the manner in which it was conducted, the initial police investigation and the fact that we feel she did not receive a fair trial."

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Velma said:

He said: "We will be seeking an expedited appeal to the Supreme Court of Cyprus and we will also be considering going to the European Court of Human Rights.

 

As British Nationals, will they be able to access the European Court of Human Rights after Brexit at the end of this year? I suppose only if

they make an application before the end of 2020?

Edited by Golden Retriever

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3 hours ago, Golden Retriever said:

 

As British Nationals, will they be able to access the European Court of Human Rights after Brexit at the end of this year? I suppose only if

they make an application before the end of 2020?

 

The ECHR operates independently of the EU, so British Nationals will still have access to the court.

 

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/fact-figures/whats-the-difference-between-the-european-convention-on-human-rights-the-european-court-of-human-rights-and-the-european-court-of-justice/

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Muh Greatest Ally 

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Fake Justice - David Icke

 

 

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i think the learning curve here is

 

1. in a foreign country DO NOT expect your national laws and practice to apply

2. if your claim is damaging to the foreign countries/local areas reputation --- get on a plane home

3. DO NOT work or live in a foreign country which does things differently to how your domestic country has taught you unless you are ready for the shit storm

4. if your countries laws are based upon innocent until proven guilty, do not make claims in a foreign country unless you have evidence, witnesses and local support

 

the Uk is a cesspit of legalities but in a worldly sense its up at the top of the list of integrity and honour. all the rest are waaaaaaaay below

 

Germany whitewashed New Year rapes of women ... just get with the program. Socialist/Corporate legal systems are horrific for people

 

n,b she should be MEGA grateful that shes allowed out of the country on a suspended. She should praise the Uk for leaning on the Cypriots

 

Edited by zArk

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Just watched David's video posted by Muir... here's the clincher....

 

"The real background to why this teenager has been treated so disgracefully....

 

“Israel signs multi $BILLION DOLLAR gas pipeline deal with Cypriots only days after British tourist rape incident teenager was convicted”

 

....

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I blame Western Liberalism and Progressiveness. In your perfect world a woman can just wear what she wants, whenever and wherever she wants, and have consensual sex with whomever, wherever, whenever she wants without facing the consequences of her actions. In the real world shit ain't like that. Natures Law says women need to be accompanied by men who are willing to lay down their lives to protect her. This is exactly what's missing in Western nations today. The men don't want to protect their women, and the women don't want to be protected by their men. This incident in Cyprus is the result. The rapes on Newyears eve in Cologne are the result. The grooming gangs in the UK are the result

Natures Law doesn't care about Nationality, Religion, Race, Ethnicity, or Class

Natures Law always wins

 

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On 1/5/2020 at 4:58 PM, Algy said:

Seeing the videos. 

Please upload the video to liveleaks and post the link so we can put this story to rest

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27 minutes ago, 1A. said:

I blame Western Liberalism and Progressiveness. In your perfect world a woman can just wear what she wants, whenever and wherever she wants, and have consensual sex with whomever, wherever, whenever she wants without facing the consequences of her actions. In the real world shit ain't like that. Natures Law says women need to be accompanied by men who are willing to lay down their lives to protect her. This is exactly what's missing in Western nations today. The men don't want to protect their women, and the women don't want to be protected by their men. This incident in Cyprus is the result. The rapes on Newyears eve in Cologne are the result. The grooming gangs in the UK are the result

Natures Law doesn't care about Nationality, Religion, Race, Ethnicity, or Class

Natures Law always wins

 

men are not responsible for womens decisions in the modern society

 

women are responsible for their own decisions and need to ensure that they make good decisions

 

there are bad people out there that will rape and exploit. This should be understood and factored into peoples decision making

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1 minute ago, muir said:

 

men are not responsible for womens decisions in the modern society

 

women are responsible for their own decisions and need to ensure that they make good decisions

 

there are bad people out there that will rape and exploit. This should be understood and factored into peoples decision making

Keyword being "modern society"

Natures Law always wins

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19 minutes ago, 1A. said:

Keyword being "modern society"

Natures Law always wins

 

the problem we have is this new 'woke' mentality which is based around the fallacious belief that reality is what ever a person subjectively chooses reality to be

 

In a corporate world of paper shuffling jobs there are many people who can behave as if reality is subjective and for the most part get away with it because there won't be any real repurcussions but there are many of us whose lives depend on facing reality and acting accordingly from one moment to the next or face having reality come crashing down on us

 

It has always been thus

 

I can't go out into nature and just pick any plant i want and stuff it in my mouth just because i like the look of it because some plants are toxic. I need to know which plants are safe and which are not before i bite and i need to make responsible decisions according to that knowledge that i have pre-armed myself with

 

the problem with the progressive woke mentality is that it removes all personal responsiblity from the equation as if it is the fault of reality itself when something goes wrong and not the fault of a person for not living according to reality

 

Alongside a condemnation of these israelis for their actions there also needs to be a re-affirmation of the need for caution and sensible action on the part of both men and women as the world is and always has been a risky place and no amount of cosseting or subjective wishful-non-thinking is ever going to change that

 

If a person steps off a high building they will fall and die. It doesn't matter whether a person wants to believe that they will fall or die or not, reality will remove illusion from them....painfully

 

sanity is living in alignment with reality and acting accordingly

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1 hour ago, 1A. said:

Natures Law says women need to be accompanied by men who are willing to lay down their lives to protect her.


Wow.
Nice progressive attitude... :classic_dry:

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23 minutes ago, muir said:

Alongside a condemnation of these lsraelis for their actions there also needs to be a re-affirmation of the need for caution and sensible action on the part of both men and women as the world is and always has been a risky place and no amount of cosseting or subjective wishful-non-thinking is ever going to change that


Agreed.
Caution in an alcohol / party / holiday environment is a minefield..
 

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29 minutes ago, muir said:

the problem we have is this new 'woke' mentality which is based around the fallacious belief that reality is what ever a person subjectively chooses reality to be

I work in a industrial dangerous area so I'm very safety aware. But when I drive home from work I see allot of people in traffic who are completely oblivious of any safety hazards or risks. I imagine they're "the paper shufflers" lol

 

Letting your daughter go on a holiday in the Mediterranean and behave like a slut is very bad and irresponsible parenting. That's objective reality, not subjective

 

No matter how despicable I find the actions of these young men. By law they didn't do anything wrong. But if I found my sons acting like this I will put them right

 

We don't blame high building for people falling off and dying

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6 minutes ago, Basket Case said:


Wow.
Nice progressive attitude... :classic_dry:

Absolutely not. I'm Socially Conservative

Edited by 1A.

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6 minutes ago, Basket Case said:

Agreed.
Caution in an alcohol / party / holiday environment is a minefield..

 

the same situation occured with the slut marches where some 'feminists' insisted that women should be able to go anywhere they like, whenever they like, dressed how they like

 

this is akin to saying that a person can walk through the jungle alone whenever they like wherever they like. Well yes they can do that but if they do that they might be eaten by a tiger

 

In an ideal world we'd all be able to do all kinds of things but we don't live in an ideal world. We live in THIS world and in this world there are dangers

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6 minutes ago, Basket Case said:


Ever heard of a type of humour called 'sarcasm' ?

No, you are a Progressive. No sarcasm

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